Cover Image: The City of Dusk

The City of Dusk

Pub Date:   |   Archive Date:

Member Reviews

This book blew me away. From the EPIC world building, beautiful elemental magic system, culturally diverse & inclusive characters, political intrigue, glorious revenge violence, and the religion & mythology, I knew this was going to be great.

“Four worlds, four realms, four gods, all on the same plane of existence. Except now the roads between those realms were cut, the Cosmic Scale no longer in alignment. Each of them floated independently of one another, abandoned by the gods that had birthed them.”

The main characters are from the four noble houses, descended from the gods: Dante & Taesia Lastrider, Risha Vakara, Nikolas Cyr, and Angelica Mardova. They each have inherited divine magical powers, and are all competing for the kings favor. But when demonic conjurers start causing problems, and the annual Godsnight celebration draws closer, their realm starts to crumble. When each heir tries to figure out their own way to save the realm, they learn nothing is as it seems.

“He was afraid, and she loved every second of it.”
“She had always been and would always be Taesia Lastrider, carrier of godsblood and feared by the people. Fine then, she thought, straightening to her full height as those around her flinched. Fear me.”

Although extremely dark at times, I absolutely loved the family dynamics! Especially the Lastrider & Vakara families. My new favorite character is Taesia Lastrider. She’s the feisty, “spare” middle child, wild, powerful, unpredictable, and hilarious. Taesia also takes after her older brother Dante, both extremely loyal and willing to go to great lengths to protect their family & people. I also loved the dynamic and comedic relief from the guards Paris, Julian, and Taide.

With so many developments and plot twists, I was constantly surprised and completely captivated by this dark epic fantasy. Honestly the only thing that could’ve made this better is if my E-ARC copy included a map! Because I adore fantasy world maps. Bravo Tara Sim!!! I’m so excited for the rest of this trilogy.

Thank you to Tara Sim and Orbit Books for the opportunity to read this ARC from NetGalley in exchange for my honest review.

Was this review helpful?

An epic fantasy about four heirs and their gods. From the epilogue and the first chapter i was hooked. I wanted to learn more about this world, the four heirs, and the gods that they belonged to. Demons, Necromanciers, Elementals, Lumins and Shades. You get a little bit of everything from book 1 of a new fantasy series by Tara Sim. Conjuring is a big no no and against the law in this world. And a group keeps doing it. The dead coming back without the House of Vakara help. The world is starting to suffer and the only way to break it is for all the heirs to come together. But will they succeed or will it cause more chaos… I loved the writing and how this new world grabbed my attention and kept it the entire time. I will gladly be purchasing a physical copy on realease day and will be eagerly awaiting the next installment. Thank you NetGalley for the ARC! This is one you don’t want to miss!

Was this review helpful?

Political families with ancestral magical gifts from the literal gods? With death, life, darkness, and light powers? Umm... Yes, please. Let me just sign away my paycheck over to Barnes & Noble because I am hooked on this new fantasy trilogy, and I need book two as soon as possible.

The City of Dusk is just what fantasy readers need. It's a political intrigue, battle of the gods with demons and monsters to boot! It has the dark and gritty quality of a grim-dark without being so dark and gritty that it scares away the tamer fantasy reader. It also has multi-POVs to see the different perspectives of the world, but not an overwhelming amount like some sprawling epics. It also has a great and diverse world with diverse characters (normalizing gay relationships in SFF fake worlds shouldn't be that hard, but some authors seem to have issues with it). And, most importantly, The City of Dusk has crossover appeal for YA fantasy readers who are too intimidated to delve into some denser works, like Martin or Sanderson. It's a great read for people like me, who has only recently started to dive into those larger tomes. A three-book series is much less intimidating.

I will say that going into this book, you are going to want to read the synopsis first. DO NOT GO IN BLIND. You need to have some idea of who the major players are. I went in blind, hoping not to spoil anything for myself, but I was unnecessarily confused for the first 10% of the story, which could've been avoided if I had just read the synopsis. There are a lot of characters and a lot of new gods and places, so having the synopsis in the back of your mind as you go in will definitely help. Other than some confusion in the beginning and ending when $hit was going down and too much was happening for my little brain to easily follow, this book was AMAZING!

I especially love the characters! Well, all all except one, but I'll circle back to her. Of the four main characters, Taesia, Nik, and Risha are my favorites. The dark, light, and death powers. So cool. I kind of just want an entire book dedicated to their family histories. Taesia is a bada$$, Nik is a cinnamon roll, and Risha has some cool powers and some cool secrets. Their individiual trauma and family drama made from some great reading, but put together, these godly heirs are just trying to do their best in a messed up situation. As for the other main character, Angelica, I still liked her at times, until she went a little off the rails. But she does have some cute interactions with a certain thief. And yes, you heard that right, there's romance in this book! It isn't the forefront of the story, but it's there, and I am dying to see that relationship drama play out within this godly showdown.

Overall, The City of Dusk is a must read for fans of mischievous deities, otherworldly powers, and young heirs trying to fix impossible messes. So basically, if you like George R.R. Martin, Brandon Sanderson, Sarah J. Maas, Leigh Bardugo, Jennifer L. Armentrout, or even Avatar: The Last Airbender, you should 100% read The City of Dusk. It's dark, it's fun, and it's chock-full of crazy twists and turns.

4 stars

*Note: I received a NetGalley ARC of this book to review from the publisher. This in no way affected my opinion/review.

Was this review helpful?

This book follows the heirs of four noble houses, each of them descendants of gods, with unique magic and abilities. Though there's something of an expected rivalry between them all, not all of them follow it, and they all must band together to try to save their dying realm.

I absolutely loved this book, and cannot wait for the next installment. It's set in such an interesting world. All of the characters have an unique voice and are captivating, the magic and gods are fascinating, and it surprised me multiple times.

Was this review helpful?

I've actually only read two Tara Sim books so far, but I'd definitely consider myself a fan. I've been looking forward to this book since the announcement, and I'm so glad I get to review it!
Some background: This book is about the realm of Vitae which houses a monarchy and four Houses whose members are descended from the gods. The Lastriders are descended from Nyx, god of darkness, the Mardovas from Deia, goddess of life, the Cyrs from Phos, god of light, and the Vakaras from Thana, goddess of death. All of the heirs of these houses want to pierce the veil between the four realms, each ruled by a god, but the gods themselves have sealed the doors.
First of all, characters! Because the houses are such a big focus, this story is very character-driven with seven POVs and a lot going on in each. My personal favorites were Dante and Taesia, the older siblings of House Lastrider. However, everyone was either really likeable or really purposefully unlikable. It's easy to see everyone's motivations, but only once they're really realized by the characters themselves. I thought it was a bit hard to keep track of what was going on with Angelica, but otherwise, every character was full fleshed out and had so many dimensions.
Next, the world! This world seemed like it would be incredibly confusing, but I got the hang of it quickly. Four gods, four realms, four Houses, and a lot to keep track of, but Sim is really good at worldbuilding and makes it not quite EASY, but not a pain, to figure everything out. I really loved all of the magic going on here, especially that of the Lastriders and Cyrs. I didn't really see any plot holes or inconsistencies, and I was definitely happy to be reading the entire time.
Relationships aren't really a priority in this installment, but I sense that romantic ones will be very relevant in the next few books. Here, it's mainly about familial bonds and loyalties, but also friendships the heirs of the Houses have made with each other and what tugs on those bonds. It was a tad hard to figure out who was mad at who and why, but I loved the intricacies and drama.
Overall, I'd definitely recommend this book to fans of Sim's writing and the dark fantasy genre. This does come with a warning, though, that the book isn't YA like her others: there's explicit content, some pretty dark rituals, mutilation, suicide ideation, and cannibalism amongst other triggers. If none of those are deal-breakers for you, though, this book is amazing and fully worth the read. I CANNOT WAIT FOR THE MIDNIGHT KINGDOM!!!

Was this review helpful?

3 stars. This book has a interesting premise. Four houses, four gods, Four types of powers. The characters are rivals yet also kinda friends. I liked the world but did wish there had been a map included in the ARC so I could better picture it. I didn’t love or hate any of the characters which is unfortunate because you want to love it hate them. I also struggled with the way this book was formatted. This book jumps around A LOT from 7 different point of views. You can be reading a long bit about Angelica and suddenly without any warning you are reading about Taesia. I wish there had been a way to tell who’s point of view you were going to be reading. Like a divider that is a symbol or the main point of view of that parts name or even just separate it via chapters. Regardless it felt like it was overwhelming to jump around so much. I went back several times rereading multiple pages multiple times because it didn’t make sense. For instance there’s a scene where two characters are together with another character- there’s conversation and then it jumps and one of those same characters is with a different character in an different conversation out of nowhere and I was like wait what? where did that person come from and where is her mom? Because it just didn’t make sense. It was like it was trying to show a flashback but it was too mashed up together that it didn’t come off clearly? There were some twists in this book but I actually wasn’t surprised at all by them. Most of them I guessed from the time that character was introduced honestly. I also felt like this book was kinda a let down in the romance area. Everyone appears to be BI which is great except they don’t give us a true couple of any kind to truly root for. It’s all acquaintances they think are attractive but nothing else happens? I don’t know I would have liked more. The relationships with the main four characters I hope will be more fleshed out in the next book as well because I felt like There was so many different stories going on in this book I felt like it made it so no one character matters to me. Overall I liked the premise and idea of this book. I liked the world but I felt like it wasn’t as good as it could’ve been.

Was this review helpful?

Thank you to NetGalley and the publisher for this arc.

Unfortunately, this book just wasn’t for me. The characters felt really underdeveloped/took too long to develop. At least for the first 25% I couldn’t connect anything. Characters were basically a name and not much else, which left me confused every time I read a chapter. Just when I was starting to follow along, the point of view would change. There were multiple and they skipped around randomly. It made it too hard for me to connect to anyone or the story itself.

Was this review helpful?

Fantasy is one of my favourite genres, and I look for excuses to dive into the fantasy worlds. I have always admired Ms. Sims work, her characters and her story has always had a special in my heart and this book too didn’t disappoint. I really liked all the magic elements that were put into work, the intricate detailing to the plot, the word building was just fantastic, characters were exceptionally interesting and the story line just kept me hooked right from the beginning. So, in a nutshell, it’s a 4 star read.

Was this review helpful?

*Thank you to the publishers on Netgalley for giving me this ARC to review*

Characters 4.5| Setting 5| Plot 5| Writing 4| Enjoyability 5

Overall rating: 4.7

This was one of my anticipated reads of this year and Sim did not disappoint. I have never read a Sim book before, but have always been super interested. And now I just want to eat all of their works up.

This book is full of a lot of intricate magic and politics. I guessed a big element and I don't really think it was a surprise as it was so dang obvious, Sim took another twist and I never once guessed that plot point, so I'm in for this.

I fell in love with these characters. I didn't really care for Nikolas, but I felt he didn't get as much perspective as the others so I'm super interested to see what Sim does for him later in the series.

None of these characters are the same person as they are at the beginning of the book they go through the plot and change into different people.

The pacing was done so dang well. There is a big event they kept hyping up and I felt we were getting there on a good time and I enjoyed all of it.

I had my reservations in the beginning because the first chapter from Taesia was kind of wonky writing, but the rest of the book wasn't like that so it may just be due to an ARC and not fully out yet.

This ending makes me want to devour the sequel right at this moment so I will be watching out for that sequel.

Was this review helpful?

I received a copy through NetGalley for review.

Alright this one gets a 4.5.
The ending was unbelievable. If it wasn't for the small portions where it got a little clunky, it would have been a full 5.

This one took me awhile to get through. There is a lot going on. 4 heirs. Several spares, unknown players and Gods moving around their pieces, playing the long game until the board is ready.
I have to to say I liked all the heirs and spares. All of them are wonderfully defined as characters, each with their own screwups, and pressure and wishes for a world.
One will rule, but none of them really want the crown. Who will step up to let their family down first?

Risha Vakara and Taesia Lastrider were my two favorites. Risha is an heir trying her best to uphold her families expectations, but keeps finding herself drawn into everything she shouldn't be. Taesia is a spare. She's mischievous and tired of being the good daughter, uplifting her brother- the heir's position, but loves her people and city. Part of her just wants to be free, but in the end she realizes she might have to give up everything to save it.

Just want to say the gods might have picked the wrong generation of heirs with this batch. I hope they give back everything they've got in the next book.

Was this review helpful?

The City of Dusk is from what I understand, Tara Sim's first attempt at Adult, though I have always found her to write thick, adult themed prose. As an author, I have found her high concept and a little "all over the place". Chaotic is the best way to put it. I think what I am realizing is this author is simply not for me. I love her ideas and find her to be genuinely creative, but she struggles with consistency in her writing and building up her epic storylines can be messy.

The City Of Dusk is a massive step up from her last work but still left me fairly disappointed

Was this review helpful?

The best part of this book for me was the characters; on one hand I felt like I was so different from these characters and it was exciting to be able to live vicariously through them. On the other hand, by the end I felt like a little piece of each of them I could relate to in my own way. The world building was pretty great but also a bit dense for my brain at the moment, but that's a "me" problem. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to read this and hope to see more in the future!!

Was this review helpful?

honestly, I knew better then to request this. I have never connected with Tara Sim's writing, it always comes across as very shallow to me, but I wanted to give them another chance. It's fine! if you liked their other works you'll like this.

Was this review helpful?

I can’t describe it but there was just something... off about this book. I think it’s a number of things giving me this feeling: an old, medieval world that has incorporated modern world things and language (such as describing garments of Earth cultures with Earth names, etc). Maybe it’s the horrendous amount of POVs. Maybe it’s the timeline of things, that 500 years after the Sealing that trouble is taking place doesn’t sit right with me. Maybe it’s because I wasn’t able to find anything super original about any of the ideas, cultures, or powers.

There were things that were good about this book, hence the 2-star, not 1. I think the characters were the biggest redeeming factor. I thought they were very diverse and I liked their wide array of personalities. I do see that the author put some effort into the world building.

But I think the piece, altogether, just doesn’t work. There’s something very... unremarkable about it.

Was this review helpful?

The City of Dusk is a dark political fantasy, and I really enjoyed it.

The story follows four rival noble heirs descended from the four gods of the four realms (light, dark, life, and death), each with a different kind of magic, all vying for the throne. But when an ancient magic that’s both forbidden and dangerous spawns and causes destruction across Nexus, AKA the City of Dusk, the four heirs must bond together to put a stop to it before Godsnight, the most powerful day of the century, when all forms of magic will be at their most potent and the gods at their strongest.

Taesia and Dante Lastrider are shades, able to summon and control shadows. Taesia specializes in shadow manipulation and has a familiar named Umbra, while Dante, the heir, is able to form shadows into objects and has a familiar named Nox. They have a younger sister named Brailee, a dreamwalker, who has a familiar named Somnus. Their House worships Nyx, the god of Noctus (the dark realm).

Angelica Mardova is an elementalist, but she is best at air magic. She has a unique ability to be able to play instruments like the violin or the piccolo to call upon the air to increase her power. Her god is Deia, the god of Vitae (the realm of life).

Nikolas Cyr is a warrior with the ability to use light magic, such as being able to create wings or a shield made of light. He has a familiar named Lux. The king has tasked him to lead the special force responsible for removing conjuration, the illegal magic, from the city. His House worships Phos, the god of Solara (the light realm), although Nik is struggling with his faith.

Risha Vakara is a necromancer, but since her House strictly controls the use of necromancy, she can often be found performing seances instead. She worships Thana, the god of Mortri (the realm of death).

I really loved the cast of characters in this novel. They are diverse in personality and ferocity levels. While I enjoyed reading each of their POVs, I think Risha’s story was my favorite because of the introduction of a certain character named Jas, although you’ll have to read the book to discover why.

I especially enjoyed the friendship and banter between Taesia and Risha and the romantic relationship between Taesia and Nik. And then there’s Angelica, who hates all the other Houses and doesn’t want to work with them, but reluctantly agrees to join forces. It felt to me like Taesia was the primary protagonist even though the four main POVs are equally present throughout the novel. Taesia’s character arc is certainly the most surprising of all the characters though.

I think it’s really neat to see so many different kinds of magic present in one book, and we actually do get to see each of the characters use their magic quite a bit, including using their familiars to help them. We also get to see a fair amount of forbidden conjuration as well, which I personally thought was pretty cool. There are lots of good high-action scenes in The City of Dusk, and it’s cool to see one form of magic pitted against another form of magic.

The noble Houses believe that the king will announce the new heir of Nexus on Godsnight, so they are trying to work together to put a stop to the illegal use of conjuration by then so the city doesn’t get destroyed while also trying to prove themselves each the superior House so the king will choose them for the throne. So there’s this interesting dynamic of being both friends and enemies at the same time and I loved it.

The City of Dusk was a strong entry into the adult fantasy canon, and I’m so happy I read it. There was a portion of the book between about 70% and 90% that was a little slow for my taste, especially since we’ve been building up to this epic battle at the end and I was just ready to see how it turned out and the preparations beforehand were dragging on, in my opinion. So the book felt like it was longer than it needed to be. Other than that, though, I don’t have any complaints. It is easy to differentiate between the characters and their types of magic, and the plot was unique and fun. I can’t wait to read the sequels!

Was this review helpful?

I had a hard time reading this book. When I first started it, I felt like I missed a whole book before it (in my head I was like “wait, is this a sequel and I missed the first book?!”). The concept of the book is great and I could tell the author put a lot into the book, but there was just so much going on with 4 POVs, different magic, and brief explanations. I also felt like it jumped around to a new scene right in the middle of the current one.. example: Angelica was walking with her mother after speaking with the king and then all of a sudden she was training with a professor. I had to re read that part around 4 times to see if I had missed the transition, but no it just went straight to a different scene.

Was this review helpful?

My Review
The City of Dusk is my first book by Tara Sim, and I am pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed it! I've even added a few of her other reads to my tbr list, and I am looking forward to reading them.
In The City of Dusk, the world-building is fantastic, the characters are all vastly different yet in-depth and relatable, and the world-building is immersive and creative. I especially love the use of Sim's fantasy version of religion and gods in this story, which shape the fantasy touches spectacularly.
On top of the story being great, the author is a skilled writer, and the book has very few noticeable grammatical errors and flows well.


The Good Things
1. The story is well-written and devoid of grammatical errors.
2. The fantasy world Sim creates is terrific, and I found myself entirely immersed in it.
3. The four noble houses are diverse and exciting.
4. Angelica and Taeisia are my favorite characters. They both came alive on the page. 

The Bad Things
1. The first 15% of the book was hard to push through, but once I got at around chapter VI, I found myself starting to get more and more interested.
2. This was a much more intense read than I thought it would be! Not necessarily a bad thing, but I was NOT prepared for it. Add it to your tbr list right now, and be prepared! :) 

My Final Rating:
☆☆☆☆ (Goodreads) - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/4451010584
☆☆☆☆ (Amazon- will leave this review once the book is released)
☆☆☆☆ (Blog) - https://kayssecretlibrary.wixsite.com/bookreviews (down for maintenance - will be live within 24 hours)

Was this review helpful?

My god is this book a serious shot of adrenaline.
There are so many things about this book that appealed to me. Firstly, the characters. The City of Dusk is centered around four(ish) main characters: Taesia, Risha, Angelica, and Nik. Each character has their own level of power, faults, strengths, personality, and motivations. They are entirely unique and undoubtedly likeable, as well as consistent. There is a serious progression of character development throughout this novel but it is never shifty or messy. Sim put a great deal of thought into each character, who they were, and what they wanted. Which is impressive considering how chaotic this book seemed to get at times.
Secondly, there is no lack of secrets, schemes, or mystery in almost every scene. Sim can successfully keep you guessing and you might manage to discover one or two things for yourself, but in reality you haven't even begun to scratch the surface. Largely, this plot is so intricate. In most books, one or two groundbreaking scenes keep you invested but The City of Dusk is action-packed from cover to cover. Now I understand that can always raise concern, but no worry, the delicacy with which each scene, character, and situation is created prevents readers from getting confused or overwhelmed.
Now for a personal rant: Taesia. Taesia is a character you see more often then others, especially in the beginning. I'd also add that she seemed to have the most gradual, but intense, character development throughout this book. I also may be in love with her. If you are a sucker for strong female characters, Sim has mastered that angle entirely. Additionally, romance is in there! If you're scared of all fight and no love, do not worry. But on the opposing side understand it is nowhere near being vital to the plotline, or does it come around all that often. This book is largely fantasy, not romance. Sim incorporated just enough sexual tension between the characters to make things a tad more exciting. Personally, I loved it.
For the last time, I know I've said this book is crazy with action time and time again but the last 100 pages! Entirely a finale at a firework show. You know when it's nearing the end and fireworks are exploding so consistently and loudly that you just watch with a glaze of, ecstasy and disbelief? That is how I felt before I finished the last page of this book. Just buckle up, dive in, and you'll be fine.
But seriously, The City of Dusk was wonderful.

Was this review helpful?

Thank you Netgalley once again for this book!
I actually don't know what to say about this one, truthfully. I liked it, the characters were really good, so was the pacing, it had some twists I didn't see coming, and yet....I don't know. Maybe I'm reading to much fantasy lately or this was like to many other fantasy books. Maybe I'm just in the wrong mood for it? All I know is that I enjoyed reading it, but I know I won't remember it.

Was this review helpful?

Billed as epic fantasy with necromancy, “The City of Dusk” checked many boxes of my favorite elements in novels. The premise, paired with an elegantly designed cover, had me excited to dig in.

The good:

—Unique story world

—Interesting premise

—Positive LGBTQ+ rep

—Positive BIPOC rep

—Great descriptions of clothing that will probably inspire fun fan art

—Ending leaves our characters in the type of WTF situation that leaves me intrigued about the followup, even though this one was not my cup of tea.

The not so good:

It’s nearing midnight and you’ve had one of those terrible sort of days that’s left you run ragged and you’ve barely had anything to eat—so you’re not at your best when you open the fridge to make something to eat. There’s pizza, tacos, chicken lo mein, and peach cobbler. So many options and they’re all your favorite foods. Why not? You think. If one tastes good on its own, then certainly they’d taste even better mixed together. So you slap tacos and lo main onto a slice of pizza and chow down. The flavors compete with each other instead of complimenting each other. Two bites in, you realize that you can in fact have too much of a good thing.

Reading “The City of Dusk” is a bit like that.

There are four different types of magic presented within the main character’s storylines and an additional form of magic performed by an enemy. This means that there is a lot of explaining that needs to be done in order to set up what’s going on. In addition to that, there’s not standardization of magic with each of the Houses portrayed, which means there’s additional explanation within those.

Examples:

* The Deia worshipping House of Mardova are elementalists— people who can control the elements. Regular elementalists can control a maximum of three elements, but the Mardova family are like the Avatar in the animated series, and can control all four elements. Except Angelica, the heir to the Mardovas, is weak in her control of her powers and has to rely on the use of musical instruments in order to focus her use, which makes her a bit freakish and a bit of a failure in the eyes of other elementalists and her parents.
*
* The Nyx worshipping House of Lastrider are attuned to control of shadows and have shadow shaped familiars that they carry on their bodies. Each Lastrider has a different way they can control shadows and their mother specifically works with memories— which are apparently made of shadows in this world. In addition, the Lastrider house cares for non-human people from another realm who’ve been refugees in the story’s realm for 500 years. (Sidenote: It seemed completely strange to me that the nocturnal and solaras were still categorized as refugees after 500 years had transpired. 500 years is a long time.)

The other two Houses and POVs aligned with them are equally complicated. Each one of them could be the focus of one fantastic book— combined together, the promise of the premise offered here is mostly lost. So much explaining has to be done that other elements are unfortunately sacrificed. You can tell a simple story with complex characters or you can tell a complex story with simple characters— the latter is what occurs here from the combination of numerous magic systems explained and numerous POVs. There is irony here, as the complicated individuation of characters was probably intended to make compelling characters. But so much time is spent explaining things that the reader doesn’t actually get to spend much time hanging out with each character— getting to know them through their thoughts and actions. (As soon as a parcel of information is spun out, the book takes the reader to the next POV.)

The Lastrider family is given two POVs and gets the most page time— so is the one that I found most compelling at the start of the book and attached myself to. Each time that something truly compelling happened and I got excited to find out what would happen next, the book would jump to a different POV. After one hundred or so pages of this I started to lose my investment and reading became more of a chore than a joy.

The juggling of so many POVs and exposition also meant that quite often action happens off the page and is reported to characters in order to spur action. So much of what happens with the Conjureres is reported within the first several hundred pages that the upshot is that they do not present as threatening an ominous as they could be.

But all of that may just be me. Other readers may not face the same issues.

I do think that though this book is presented as epic fantasy, the characters (and their interactions and their angst oh the angst) read more as YA and if I’d gone into the reading experience expecting as such, my expectations might have been managed.

Was this review helpful?